Interview with Mevlevi Sheikh
Sefik Can

Published: Monday, January 31, 2005

The last of the Mevlevi sheikh tradition, Sefik Can Hodja, passed away at the age of 96, at his home in Suadiye the previous week (January 23). Zaman's Nuriye Akman had the last interview with him. Sefik Can Hodja made some striking explanations in this interview and also made a last request.

'One who does not know his essence cannot know Mevlana'

I got acquainted with Mevlana and loved him thanks to the translations and interpretations of his works by Sefik Can. Whenever I take the Mesnevi (Mathnawi) or other books, including some of its verses in my hands, I send my greetings from the bottom of my heart to Sefik Can and thank him over the years. I do not know why a desire to have an interview with him was delayed by me that much. I went to his house in Saskinbakkal after a momentary decision, when there was no reason for this on the agenda. Our talk lasted for hours due to the depth of the issues, as well as the difficulties caused by the old age of the deceased. If there hadn't been Nur Artiran, his student, daughter and life companion, who never left him even for a moment over the years, and to whom he entrusted his duties after his death, as he explained in his last request, I could not have been able to hold our interview so fluently and present it to you. His ears heard so little that Ms. Artiran was repeating each of my questions one by one into her grandfather's ears, a couple of times, as if she was spelling them. He was speaking in a very low voice. That's why it was again Ms. Artiran's task to translate his answers in a way that I could understand. After decoding of cassette, I received help again from Ms. Artiran in redacting the interview, because the deceased wanted to give comprehensive answers to my questions; therefore, he made deep dives into complementary topics supporting the main subject and I had difficulties following the line of logic he used. I would like to express my gratitude to Ms. Artiran, who was very well acquainted with the language of the deceased, both literally and spiritually. I think that holding the last interview with Can was allotted to me by God and the feeling that sharing his last request with the society was my responsibility. Can was the last Mevlevi, a devout follower of Mevlana and someone who not only knows the fundamentals of Mevlevism (Mawlawism) best, but who has also lived through it best. I am sure learning that he has now given the moral entrustment he received from his master, Tahir'ul Mevlevi, to a female Mevlevi, would surprise everyone. Can wants to see Artiran become a postnisin, an occupant of Mevlevi convent, of a sema, a Mevlevi ritual whirling, group composed of women and held talks about transmitting with love to the people what he received from Hak (God) with love. I kept this interview for a whole summer. I was thinking that the most appropriate time to publish it would be just after the Seb-i Arus, the nuptial night or the night Mevlana (Rumi) reunites with the Creator, the ceremonies on December 17; however, he was so ill during those days that I felt it would be appropriate to postpone it. It is today's grant.

Sir, how did you get acquainted with Mevlana?

I am the son of a town mufti. I was born in the town of Tebricik in Erzurum , and later my father became the mufti of the town. My father was interested in literature very much. He was both a valuable religious scholar who graduated from the madrasah and was a very important mufti of that era. He was also an intellectual teaching at Dar'ul Muallim. My father taught me Arabic and Persian before I started school. I can say that I learned how to speak with the words of Mevlana. Many of Mevlana's poems that I now try to say by heart, are poems my father taught me in those days. My closeness to Mevlana began with my father's love for Mevlana. The love my father felt for Mevlana affected me as well. Then, because of the First World War, we left everything, moved to Sivas , and then to Yozgat. After being to many places, we moved because of the savagery of the war, and finally arrived at somewhere between Sivas and Tokat, that is called Yildizeli. I saw and experienced all the pains of war when I was just a child. My father was appointed the mufti of Yildizeli, where we had just arrived. While I was attending primary school, my father made me memorize verses from Hafiz, Sadi and Mevlana and I read the Gulistan by Sadi. When I graduated from primary school, my father tried to teach me the masterpieces of these three wise/holy men.

Later on, I attended a military school in Tokat and then the Kuleli Military High School in Istanbul . I graduated from high school and the Military Academy , and became an army officer; however, there was a great desire in me to become a teacher. Because the love for books, science, teaching and learning that I saw in my father, who was my first guide and murshid, spiritual master, had passed onto me as well. I used to secretly attend to the Istanbul University Department of Turkish Literature. When this was understood, they took me from there and assigned me to a unit in a town called Vize in Thrace . I did not give up this love of mine even there. One day, I wrote a letter expressing my love for teaching to the commander of my unit and asked him to give me permission to complete my undergraduate education at the Department of Turkish Literature. I passed the teachers' exam with the permission of my commander. Yet, to become a teacher, I had to complete a two-year internship. That's why they assigned me to the Kuleli Military High School , to be near master Tahir'ul Mevlevi, in order to complete my internship.

I met master Tahir'ul Mevlevi during those times and I had the honor of accompanying and serving him for 16 years. Look at the will of God that I received both my material and moral diploma at the hands of Tahir'ul Mevlevi. This was a great bestowment of Allah. My first master was my late father; however, Tahir'ul Mevlevi was my second murshid, whom I love as much as my father. He enlightened my way to Mevlana and guided me with his experience. Tahir'ul Mevlevi's love for Mevlana had a big mark on me. That's why I bought all the world classics, the poems of the most famous poets and I read them all. I dedicated my whole life to reading. I established a personal library with 10,000 books. Meanwhile, I set my heart on ancient Greek and classical Latin literature. I even wrote a book on classical Greek mythology. My purpose in telling all these is: I did not have a blindfolded spiritual attachment to Mevlana. I searched and read all world literature; I studied all of them. Finally, all of them seemed to me very meaningless and unnecessary.

Sir, is the quatrain (rubai) "Come! Come again! Whoever, whatever you may be, come!" understood by contemporary people, right?

This quatrain does not belong to Mevlana, and this is already known by everyone. The library official at the dergah, the Mevlevi dervish lodge, the late Necati Bey, had seen this quatrain written in old calligraphy on a sheet. Without searching for the its origin, he spread the rumor everywhere that it was a Mevlana quatrain. Whereas, this quatrain is introduced as belonging to someone else in an anthology called "Harabat," that was prepared by Ziya Pasha. I saw that in another handwritten quatrain as well; nevertheless, because Mevlana has many quatrains like this one, and even some more enthusiastic ones, it might also be accepted as a Mevlana quatrain. This is not very important. The main problem is about those who are unaware of the spirit of this quatrain and take it on the surface, in addition to those who created this situation.

"Come! Come again! Whoever, whatever you may be, come!

Heathen, idolatrous or fire worshipper, come!

Even if you deny your oaths a hundred times, come!

Our door is the door of hope, come! Come like you are!"

Our door is the door of hope, come! Come like you are!"

This specifically signifies the holy Qur'an's verse "Say: 'O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah. for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.'" (Zumer, 53) and all Qur'anic verses including God's words "O ye people" as a whole. It does not matter how sinful a person is, if he/she sincerely repents and asks God for forgiveness, he/she will be cleansed of their sins. Now Mevlana means: "O human, your heart full of idols. Even if it is full of worldly idols and every side of you is stigmatized with earthbound and corporeal filth, do not fall into despair. Come to our dergah, take the ax of love and faith and break the idols inside you. If you drink alcohol, come and discipline your nafs, ego, at our dergah, hit that bottle on a stone, and then drink the sacred wine. Come and cleanse yourself with the water of the truth in our hands, get purified from your filth and become clean."

He does not say "Come, our dergah is available for everything. Do the things that people outside do not accept in our dergah, and will we welcome it." Yet, people misinterpret that. Constantly reading this quatrain had negative effects on people. They recognized Mevlana in other ways. Mevlana has been perceived as a materialist, who believes in the eternity of the world and rejects the other world as well as believing that the soul dies together with the body. Or he was perceived as if he was of another sect, meshrep or on another path. It is as if Mevlana tolerates and accepts everything that Allah does not accept and the prophet does not find appropriate. Is such a thing possible? Mevlana wrote: "I am the slave of the Qur'an for as long as I am living. I am dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen One." In one of his hadiths, our Prophet Mohammed says that if people repent and ask God for forgiveness, but yet commit the same sin again, they would become more sinful. If you deny your oaths a hundred times and this is perceived as insignificant, then is this appropriate in Islamic belief? Those, who are unaware of the spirit and the pith of this verse, and take it only as a face value, would definitely recognize Mevlana wrongly. Didn't Mevlana say anything else? Why doesn't someone read the quatrain, in which he says "I am the slave of the Qur'an for as long as I am living. I am dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen One."? Doesn't this describe Mevlana? To understand the other quatrain, one has to think deeply. Because no one can bear that, it seems suitable to everyone's path. I would like to mention an experience of mine that affected me very much. I was in Konya years ago; two foreigners were asking a Konya resident how to go Mevlana's tomb. The man from Konya first asked. " From where did you come here?" before he gave them the address. They told him where they came from. The man got a little bit angry and asked: "Look here, didn't you have anything to do so that you came here to see that man?" If that person had heard Mevlana's words, "I am the slave of the Qur'an for as long as I am living. I am dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen One," he would not have behaved that way.

'I did not want to be a ceremonial sheikh.'

What kind of a person is Mevlana in your eyes?

It is beyond our limits to understand him and describe him. That's why everyone understands and talks about Mevlana according to their understanding and intuition, and say what they see in their own mirrors. Great saints are like great seas and we are like little drops of water near them. Just as a little drop cannot grasp a whole sea, it also cannot describe it correctly. Mevlana, who himself saw and knew all these centuries ago, had described himself in one of his quatrains as follows: "I am the slave of the Qur'an for as long as I am living. I am dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen One. If anyone interprets my words in any other way, I deplore that person and I deplore his words." This quatrain is a very clear document about Mevlana's path that would enable everyone to understand him. We commemorate him as the sultan of lovers. Because he says:

"Our mother is love! Our father is love!

"We are born from love! We are love!"

"All loves constitute a bridge leading to the divine love."

"To love human beings means to love GOD."

We cannot finish describing his humility and modesty for ages and it is impossible to finish it. We do not have any right to say anything to those who say we are on his path; however, look at the words of that great person, who is an example of humanity: "They value my turban, my robe and my head, all three of them, at one dirhem (a small currency unit) or somewhat less. Haven't you ever heard my name in this world? I am nothing, nothing, nothing." Here it is a sign of modesty of a great saint, Mevlana. Being nothing, realizing his nothingness, and continuing to walk on that path is not easy. Mevlana says that he cannot complete describing a human being even until the judgment day. Then how could I describe Mevlana, an exemplary human being? Yet, again a great saint describes that great saint best. Abdurrahman Cami had said: "Mathnawi is enough to prove the value of that unique sultan of the world of meaning. What can I say about the quality and superiority of that great being? He is not a prophet, but has a book."

We know that you ascended that post a few times together with Selman Tuzun during the Seb-I Arus ceremony in Konya in the 1960s. Why did you withdraw from the post later on and did not continue this mission?

I could not ascend that post in Konya later on as a bestowment of Allah. If I had continued this mission, I would have continued to live as a ceremonial sheikh, hence, I could not have had the chance to carry out studies on Mevlana's masterpieces, since in my opinion, I have spent many of my years trying to prepare these studies only to serve Mevlana's followers. Books have always been the most important part of my whole life. For this reason, our Master gave permission and allowed me to study his works; therefore, he prevented me from dealing with idle things and wasting time. He taught me to follow his path with his own works. No matter how I thank God for this bestowal, it would not be enough.

You've reached the venerable age of 96. What has old age taken away from you and what has it brought you in return?

I never thought for a moment that I would reach this age. When I was a child, the age of 40 seemed as old as a person could get, and I never thought I'd make it that far. I have long passed 40, and 50, 60, 70, 80 and 90 and seen and experienced many events in that time from the first world war onwards. Many years passed and I have come to this age. When I look back, I am surprised. Allah has taken away many things from me, but in their place Allah has given me so much more. That's why I praise Allah constantly. For example, I am not blind, but I cannot fully see. I am not deaf, but I cannot hear so well. I cannot go out on my own or even step down a single stair by myself. When Allah took the sight from my eyes, a curtain dropped between books and me. I can no longer read, but I do not complain about my life. I am happy with my old age. Despite all this pleasure of mine, I always remember a nice verse taught to me by Ferit Kam who had difficulties on the stairs in Tahir'ul-Mevlevi's modest house:

An insufferable misfortune; old age

Above all it is a hardship if you engage

May such being stay in the glory of your principal

O my Lord! May it be yours all

I won't complain that old age has come to visit me because I did not received that much esteem when I was young. There are many people devoted to me but I am not worth this. Allah has given me a healthy memory and no parts of the books I read were taken away from me, I can even picture the books that I read. That's why I do not complain and with the remains of my accumulation of knowledge I go to Kazim Karabekir Pasha Culture Center every fifteen days to make speeches with the help of Ms. Nur Artiran. Moreover, Ms Artiran is always with me and she is my eyes and ears. We still study together and prepare books. Ms Artiran looks after me and treats me like a father. My 95-year life has passed like a dream. Aren't both the joy and sorrow of the world like a dream? Although I am old, I still want to live more. I have the joy of life inside me. This is what Allah fills my heart with. Even in the most depressive moments of my life, I want to live, more and more. I myself cannot ask Allah to grant me more life, yet I ask my friends to wish it for me because I hesitate to ask this from Allah, who has already given me 96 years. I mean, it does not matter how much one suffers, or how old one is - in the end, one never gives up living. Now, there is only one point that makes me sad, that when one approaches old age, one can no longer say prayers properly. Devout followers of Allah warn the youth constantly: "O young man! Fulfill your religious exercises, worship Allah and accomplish your duties. Do not think that you are young and can fulfill them later, because youth passes into old age and these become very hard." Really, there are times that I become sad that this task has become harder, but I still have a quenchless love inside me for studying and serving humanity.

What do you think about imaginary pictures of Mevlana? Is there any information regarding his physical appearance in the sources?

Known pictures of Mevlana are in books published in Iran and in some published in Europe . These are imaginary pictures, yet they still represent Mevlana's identity and physical appearance as closely as possible. I have not seen any reliable text expressing any crucial and different explanation regarding physical characteristics in the sources yet. For instance, this picture showing him with a rosary in his hand is regarded as the oldest picture. It is narrated that a well-known artist painted that picture. Yet, all of them are imaginary pictures of Mevlana. Several saints, including Imam Ali have such imaginary pictures, but the real image is the picture, which reveals the inner saint, that is to say, which reflects his spirit and meaning. Mevlana himself touches this issue in Mesnevi (Mathnawi). You will see that Mevlana wants to know himself, too. He wants to see the real face of himself, he wonders what kind of a person he is, who he is. He explains this in Mathnawi as follows: "I wonder how I can see my face. I wonder what kind of a complexion I have. Am I someone with a clean and spotless face? Or am I someone with a dirty and sinful face? How can I observe this? To see my inner face, the picture of my soul, I have been struggling and searching. Yet my inner face was not shown to anybody and nothing could reflect my inner face to me. I told myself, 'Why was the mirror invented? What end does it serve? Is it not invented so that everybody can look into it and see who they are and how they look?' But the mirrors that we know of are made to show people's outer faces and physical attributes. Where and how is the mirror that shows the face of the heart? The mirror of the heart is very expensive and very valuable. The mirror of the heart is nothing but the face of the Beloved. The face of the Beloved that shows our inner face, the face of heart, is not in this world. It is in the spiritual world." (Mathnawi, Vol. II, Couplet 95) As it is understood, Mevlana isn't interested in his physical appearance, but his inner soul. Mevlana should be seen and grasped through these Mathnawi couplets. I see Mevlana through my understanding in my heart as I myself imagine him. You can also see him as you imagine. That is, as with humans we shall find the real descriptions of saints in our own hearts.

We know that Mevlana himself did not write down the Mathnawi, but others did it for him. Could they have made any errors or included wrong expressions while writing?

It is known that Mevlana did handwrite the first 18 couplets of the six-volume Mathnawi. He dictated all the other couplets to his follower, Husameddin Celebi. Every night, they used to be retreat to their room and Mevlana used to ask Celebi to read the couplets that his master dictated him. When he heard Celebi reading the couplets, he used to edit, and then Celebi would note those corrections in his notebook. Thus the Mathnawi was written. Preparation of the Mathnawi was even delayed sometimes for various reasons. Then they started again. The pieces of the Mathnawi were written in the same way every night and day, sometimes until the morning. This lasted for years. Completion of the six-volume Mathnawi; therefore, took years. It cannot be thought that Celebi added anything on his own. It is already a very metrical and rhymed style. If you ask my opinion, I would say Celebi added nothing to the text and there are no errors. Even if he had added anything, it would not have been anything that did not reflect Mevlana and his views and ideas.

Mevlana spoke and Celebi wrote, but could lines or ideas belonging to other people have been included in Mathnawi later on?

As we've seen, Mevlana himself handwrote the first 18 couplet of the Mathnawi. Mevlana told all other couplets to Celebi and Celebi wrote down them all. Others later copied these original copies and therefore several handwritten Mathnawis proliferated widespread in Islamic world. There are some differences between them. These might be the differences by the person who directly wrote them. He might have got excited and mixed up couplets in the same verse, but these are not things that would effect the essence. None of these should make us confused or worried, but the strange point is that because everyone loves Mevlana a seventh volume was written by someone in the name of Mevlana, though it was not from him, to manipulate people according to their own ideas. The seventh volume was translated by the late Naifi in the form of poetry and published in Egypt together with its original copy. I saw the translation and the text by Naifi as well. The seventh volume mentioned is a pseudo one. It has the same meter as the original; failatun, failatun, failun. Yet, the style does not resemble Mevlana's. Furthermore, there are some non-Islamic ideas in it. It is understood that some want to make use of devotion to Mevlana to divert those, who are devoted to him, to other deviant paths. In each of the volumes of the Mathnawi, Mevlana used to handwrite Arabic prefaces after Celebi had completed them. Mevlana presented the book in these prefaces. In the preface to the fifth volume of the Mathnawi, he speaks of the Sheri'a as a torch with which to find out the truth. He says that when a human enters a tariqat on way to becoming a dervish and on the path towards the truth, they can benefit from this Sheri'a, but that after reaching the truth, the Sheri'a is over. Some say that this idea and this preface do not belong to Mevlana. Although Mevlana and our prophet Mohammed had reached the truth behind the truth, they used to pray every day and night until the morning, and obeyed all the principles of Sheri'a. There are no saints, which ceased obeying Sheri'a when they thought that they reached the truth. It is also striking that this aberration in the preface of the fifth volume is not seen in earlier prefaces. It is apparent that someone else wrote it afterwards. If you study this, you will see that there were illuminations (gilded with hand ornaments and painted designs) from the Seljuk period in the margins of the prefaces of the first, second, third, fourth, and the sixth volumes of the Mathnawi, but we do not see them in the fifth one. It is clear in terms of the style of calligraphy that another artist had written it in an age after Mevlana. Apparently, the original preface of the fifth volume was omitted and instead another one was used. Abdulbaki Golpinarli came to this conclusion and I agree with him. The preface of the fifth volume seems to have been written later on to corrupt people and move them away from Sheri'a.

It seems that some have tried to include poems not written by Mevlana into the Mathnawi, but were unable to achieve this. Is this also valid for the Divan-i Kebr?

Others' poems were included in several editions of the Divan-i Kebir. Specifically, there is an edition of the Divan-i Kebir in India , which includes several poems written by a person called Sems of Tabas. Again in Iran , Hidayat Khan made a selection of poems by Sems of Tabriz as a divan (collection). He included in that divan parts by both Mevlana and Sems of Tabas. There are many poems in it that do not belong to Mevlana. This divan was translated into Turkish by Mithat Bahari and published in three volumes under the title "Selections from the Divan-i Kebir" by the National Education Ministry during Hasan Ali Yucel's period. There are poems in that selection, which deify Caliphate Ali in addition to poems that do not belong to Mevlana. An Iranian scholar of madrasah (muderris) the late Professor Firuzenfer published the Divan-i Kebir in the most beautiful way in a large format and made a great service to humanity, devotees of Mevlana, and the knowledge. There are no doubts over the poems selected by him. The Divan-i Kebir prepared by him is the most reliable Divan. I have to be very careful about this because everyone tries to plant their deviant beliefs in others by using their devotion to Mevlana, who is at the top of all these things. Mevlana is a grand saint on Mohammedan path like the saints Abdulkadir-i Geylani, Ahmed Rifai and Sheikh Naksibendi. He is a successor of our Prophet Mohammed (Peace and Blessings be upon Him). It cannot be thought that Mevlana could have adopted any ideas that are not appropriate for our prophet Mohammed and his path.

NURIYE AKMAN

January 25, 2005